pepper | Stargate S10 thorts.

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Stargate S10 thorts.

So, Stargate season 10. I want to go find other people's observations (and, hey, if anyone wants to link me to theirs, I'd be very grateful!), but before I do, let me give you my thoughts, gratis, on the first episode.

Thank goodness for StargateWiki and for 'previously on's, because my season 9 set is at the bottom of a box, and I can't be bothered to go dig it out just to watch the last episode. Also, the name makes me want to mutter, "It's only a model." So I was glad, for once, of exposition talk. Sam floating in space, calling out for any survivors, was a really cool way to open it. Her and Cam's relief as they got back in contact, not knowing if they should be mourning Daniel - or indeed Teal'c - was really sweet.

The fact that, of all the people on all those ships that got blown up, SG-1 were (sometimes) the sole survivors struck me as, well, pretty damn unlikely - but nevermind, they're the stars of the show, and one can't expect them to get blown up in between seasons. But, still. Daniel could've died - it never sticks with him, so it's not like... Anyhow.

Vala, aside from a moment of anxiety when the baby was taken away, seemed remarkably blasé about her child being the Orici, out to kill everyone in this galaxy, etc. Giving Adria the name of a hated stepmother? It seemed all very emotionally throwaway. I kept wondering what they'd do if it were, say, Sam having the baby - I don't think they'd have made her quite so uninvolved. I think the writing does Vala a disservice, even though I did find it funny, particularly when she was telling Daniel about it. (How they'd play it if it were one of the boys having the baby, I don't know, and would never find out, because at that point I would be switching off and bleaching my brain.)

Cam got my admiration for standing up to Bra'tac, even though I did think he was in for a major ass-kicking later. And Daniel's decision to grab for Vala rather than Adria was, I thought, typical Daniel: deal with the current problem, and expect that you'll be able to sort out the more major, long-term problem at some future point. And then he did his coldblooded, "She's not a child" thing, and made me think more about that discussion last week on

sg_fignewton's LJ about Jack and the team and kids, especially the Reece issue. Could Daniel really have killed Adria-as-a-child? Well, he didn't... I think he'd avoid it at all costs, because he's all about working for the best possible outcome, even if no one else thinks it's possible - but if he had to do it, I didn't think he'd feel especially guilty about the fact that she looks like a child.

So! Ark of Truth is making a lot more sense, now. :)

Also,

holdouttrout and I held a mini, impromptu rewatch of 200, yesterday, and that episode just rocks. I just love the invisible scenes, and the puppets, and young!SG-1, and Teal'c, P.I., and Vala's attempts at storytelling, and the zombies, and all the technical talk, and.... And that wedding scene is so, SO wrong, and yet, a part of my shippy little heart can't help but get squeeful about it anyway. *g*

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My laptop is overheating, and I know how it feels. Sheesh.

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Daniel can be far more cold blooded than the others could ever hope to be, because Daniel is a True Believer. Once he decides what the proper course of action is, he *will* carry through and then he'll sleep well that night because he'll have worked through every permutation and determined that it really is the best course of action. That his moral/ethical center is dead set on the high end of GOOD rather than even over on the edge closer to NEUTRAL, is the only thing that keeps him from being seriously dangerous to the rest of us. He really *should* have shot Adria when he had the chance, but they had him wait and that was out of character. It was a poor directorial choice, I think, rather than a writing problem.

And yes, Vala was already on her downward slide as a believable character in this one.

I don't know about him sleeping well afterwards - I tend to think he'd be sad, wish he could've convinced whoever to not push it to that point, etc - but yes, I think he does decide what is right, and then go and do it, by golly.

I don't think he'd reached that point with Adria, myself - Vala was talking about possible ways to turn her, and Daniel does put off deciding to take lethal action to the last possible minute, to try to find a peaceable solution first. Scorched Earth being the case in point that I always go back to - he prevents action being taken, because he thinks they can find another solution.

I think, especially after Kalek, that him not shooting Adria pretty much on sight was massively out of character. Once he knew what she was, I don't see him standing by and letting her live. He's already learned that lesson the hard way.

I think there would be regret that it had to be that way, but I don't think he'd let it bother him too much.

I'm finding myself more and more in almost complete denial over S9 and S10 because of this sort of stuff.

But at the same time, Daniel has a very emotional attachment to his archenemies. Kalek, IMO at least, earned that sudden and intense hatred because he was essentially Anubis, whom Daniel has, er, less than nice feelings for; I think he attaches Anubis with Oma's problems, and of course with the destruction of Abydos. Similarly, the Goauld Daniel I think had the most intense hatred for was Anubis, because of the emotional attachment through Sha're. There wasn't any of that emotional element yet with Adria.

In my own opinion, of course.

I don't see Daniel that ruled by his emotions. I see him far more ruled by his intellect.

I don't think his emotions make any difference as to who is his enemy, I think his emotions make a difference as to the choices and intensity. He doesn't let his emotions rule him, but if his analysis says it's worthy, his hatred can come out to play. I can't think of anyone who he's been 'shoot on sight' with who hasn't had a seriously personal interaction with him before. Does that make sense?

I'm with you here: I think Daniel never does reach the point of sleeping well after he has taken a life. He was furious at Woolsey because he felt Woolsey forced him into a position where he had to kill Khalek, and Khalek was a full adult; I think Daniel would find it far harder to kill Adria. It's a lot easier to say you should have killed someone once it's out of your hands than actually to do it.

Perhaps I'm misremembering, but I thought Vala was really burying her feelings about Adria, which come back later, repeatedly. Maybe I imagined it, but maybe you'll see it in later episodes.

Season 10 didn't do a whole lot for me, overall, and I looked back to find that in fact I don't seem to have done any posts on specific episodes! There are a few good ones, though, I thought.

But it's nice to have summer weather, yes? Even if it does mean sleeping in the garden at night...

Nice, yes. Summer! I don't remember having a proper summer for the last few years. But I'm more of a winter person - I don't cope well with heat. :)

Fair enough. I'm only in the position to be gleeful because I didn't spend the day sweltering at work or anything, but at the beach instead. So...

*sends icy icon*

It's decidedly odd. I know I wrote up my thoughts on Flesh and Blood when I first watched it, including a comparison of Adria to Shifu. But it seems to have disappeared.

I'm sure it was brilliant, though. :)

I remember grumbling about Chekov's not-even-mentioned death, after the guy has had a recurring role over five years on the show and gone from antagonist to steady, reliable ally. I remember being upset not so much that SG-1 survived, but that they didn't seem to bother trying to get anyone else out along with them.

For the record, kamikaze Bra'atc is EXACTLY in character:

"Now what?"
"Now we die."
"Well, THAT'S a bad plan!"

See? The leader of SG-1 is always persuading Bra'tac to skip the suicide option!

I do like your observation that Daniel tends to focus on the RIGHT NOW and lets someone else worry about the Later. Of course, there IS no leader of SG-1 in S9-10, which is probably why Daniel manages to get into so very much trouble...

200! Loved parts of it, disliked others, hated the post-ep parody at the end. Most people think I took it more personally than the actors themselves, but I resented it on their behalf. Anyway, I can point you to that (http://sg-fignewton.livejournal.com/1791.html) at least - it hasn't disappeared!

Hee! Well, if you ever find your undoubtedly brilliant thoughts on Flesh & Blood, let me know. :)

I've come to the conclusion that the only reason Bra'tac is still alive is because everyone else thinks he's too cool to die. Every time it reaches a point where he's going, "Now, this time I REALLY WILL do this incredibly brave but rather pointlessly self-sacrificial thing!", everyone else goes, "No, Bra'tac! I will not let you die!" Even Oma's monk. But, sodan schmodan, I'm surprised it wasn't Cam in that infirmary at the end. *g*

Chekov is definitely dead? I was hoping he'd be one of the people who got out - they mentioned a few escape pods or some such, didn't they? Do we know he's definitely gone? Because, if so, boo!

And, ta, will go read your 200 thoughts now. :)

Your Bra'tac icon always makes me grin. :)

The guy survived 130 years before he met the Tau'ri, so I guess it's the proximity to SG-1's insanity that makes him reckless?

I think there were six escape pods, or people beaming out, or something. We never find out who. You are welcome to join me on my little floating raft on the D'Nile and decide that Chekov was one of them. ;)

Ah, okay. So, Chekov escaped, and all is well. *g*

*floats on D'Nile with you*

You know, there's actually no doubt in my mind that "Flesh and Blood" Daniel would have shot Adria in an instant if he had the chance.

Season 1 - Season 5 Daniel? Nope. Season 7 - Season 8 Daniel? Very likely nope. Season 9 Daniel? *maybe*

But after "Threads" and after coming against the Ori in early season 9 and ESPECIALLY after meeting Anubis's power-mad clone stepson, this Daniel is very different. He Does Not Like the fine lines and games the Ori/Ancients play and does not tolerate the loopholes and I don't think he sees Adria as a child and I'm not sure *this* Daniel would be able to imagine an outcome that was okay and didn't involve Adria being dead.

As for Vala? I can see what you mean. At the same time, I think we saw more genuine emotion from her in this episode than we do in a lot of episodes and I think she's just so incredibly good at hiding and covering up how she's feeling, and this is that all over again. I actually really like the interplay we get during Season 10 of Daniel and Vala and Adria - the comparisons that are and aren't made to Sha're and how Vala really feels about it all.

Yay season 10! Yay Ark of Truth making sense! (also, um, you're coming up on the pair of S10 episodes that are, IMO, among the worst episodes SG-1 ever made. Get through them. It gets MUCH BETTER!)

Hi! *squishes you*

Morpheus is in the top eight, and Pegasus Project in the top three S10 eps in my book.

I assume you mean the two non-Daniel ones?

And WORD that Daniel has had it up to HERE with the Ori and the Ancients and the rules and the cheating. Oh, yeah, he would've killed Adria if he'd really had the chance.

Oh, S10 has fantastic episodes. Lots of them. Because, yes, Morpheus is awesome. I LOVED Quest. Line in the Sand, ROAD NOT TAKEN (SQUEE!), etc.

But it also had, um, the two I think I've blocked (which, yes, I think didn't have Daniel) um...*looks up* Insiders and Uninvited and Family Ties (which is definitely in my bottom 3 episodes of all time)) though all of them had really good moments so...

But, yes, on the Daniel thing. If Adria had been supernatural but not Ori/Ancient, it wouldn't have been the same. But after Khalek and Anubis and everything? He'd have done it.

I loved Uninvited because of Cam in a sweatshirt. It hit a very unknown kink for me - I swear I paused the DVR and just stared at him.

Well, I said it had good parts. Cam running around the forest in an Air Force sweatshirt? GOOD PART!

(I seem to remember good Sam and Vala moments also)

I swear I paused the DVR and just stared at him.

Cam has had that effect on me at times. Which is odd, because in general, I don't find him particularly attractive. But every now and then, he's kind of... stunning. :)

Yes! "The Road Not Taken"! Possibly my favorite of the season, which is odd, because Daniel actually is my favorite character, and not in the episode at all.

It's odd. Line in the Sand and Road Not Taken - two eps I would've expected to ignore as non-Daniel episodes. But Aurora told me they were good, and wow did they blow me away.

Contrast those with the two non-Daniel eps in the first half of the season, which I thankfully skipped. Ugh.

Just goes to show that it has to be a really good ep to survive without Daniel... ;)

Yeah, there wasn't a moment of hesitation when he said, "She's not a child." And yes to the having had it up to here with the games being played by both sides - I think, having been an Ancient and knowing that, for whatever reason, he left the club, he feels that they don't live up to his ideals. But, killing Adria, without trying to negotiate first? You might be right. I didn't really pay much attention to season 9, to be honest, and Daniel-the-negotiator is firmly fixed in my mind.

I liked the interplay between Vala and Daniel this ep, and there were moments when Vala and Adria together were good, but... well, I was thinking it was all fixable / handwaveable in fanfic. :) Yeah, maybe she was covering up her feelings - and she is supposed to be an expert at that... If they do something later to acknowledge that she has feelings about the whole situation, I'll happily accept that as an explanation.

Worst eps ever? Hm. Okay, I shall persevere. *g*

Hi! *squishes you back* Hope it's going okay!

Yeah, there wasn't a moment of hesitation when he said, "She's not a child." And yes to the having had it up to here with the games being played by both sides

That's the thing - I don't think he things of Adria as a child. She wasn't conceived naturally (but forced upon a woman he grudgingly cared about) and she is a tool created by evil (in his mind) beings to create a loophole to kill and repress a lot of people. I think he very carefully doesn't think of her in human or child terms (did he learn that ability from Jack?)

I agree with you about Daniel-as-negotiator, but he has limits and this is a big one.

Oh, they definitely acknowledge the Vala-and-Adria thing, and mostly to my satisfaction actually.

And you will persevere! I promise there is WAY more good than bad and even the bad has good bits.

She wasn't conceived naturally (but forced upon a woman he grudgingly cared about) and she is a tool created by evil (in his mind) beings to create a loophole to kill and repress a lot of people.

In a way, some of those things could be applied to Reece. She was built rather than born, and although she's not a tool created by evil, she's the one creating the evil menace that is threatening the entire galaxy. Okay, in Reece's case, she didn't mean any harm, at first, and she's kind of an innocent - she was made 'wrong' - whereas Adria is the opposite in that she's doing it from a position of plenty of knowledge. But still - Adria didn't choose to be created, and there's a possibility there that the human side of her, the side that Vala feels she has a connection with, can be talked around. Daniel's changed - but it's to Stargate's credit that they let characters evolve like that. He does seem to have taken up Jack's attitude towards threats to the galaxy. Someone has to do it, I guess.

Actually, I have a half-baked theory that I must post about soon, about SG-1 and the way they exchange roles...

This is one of the things that drive me crazy, meta-wise, throughout the season: how aware is Adria? Is she a human being whose brain has been hardwired to believe? Does she know that the Ori are a sham, just trying to get enough juice to square off against the Ancients? Is she complicit in the truth, or complicit in the lie, or a sincere believer who might be swayed if someone can show her the reality?

It takes quite a while to reach a conclusion, and I'll be quite interested to see which one you accept, in the end.

And I look forward to your exchanging-role meta, because it's a by-product of team. They wouldn't have been able to do it in early years, before they rubbed off on each other, so to speak.

I have to handwave a lot of Vala-on-the-show stuff, but I generally read the Adria thing as putting on a front. Or maybe she's already emotionally distanced herself from the idea of "her child," since she did know Adria was supposed to be a pawn.

But, still. Daniel could've died - it never sticks with him, so it's not like... Anyhow.

Hee. *grins*

I stick by my love of '200.' I find parts of it painful, but mostly I just end up laughing through the whole thing. I've been told I'm more entertaining to watch than the ep. :-)

It was such a quick front she put up, that was my problem. Adria was just a few hours old. I just felt like it wasn't enough time for even Vala to be making snappy remarks. Eh. But, yes, I did wonder about how she'd felt about the child all along, not knowing where it'd come from, and not being a very trusting person when it comes to miracles.

And, heh. Yes, 200 is, in my mind, not a 'real' episode - it's just pure indulgence, and therefore enjoyable in a completely stupid, fun way. Empty calories - but really NICE empty calories. Like... toffee popcorn. *g*

Oh I've always thought that Daniel has the ability to be less kind than any of the others. But I agree with Trout that Vala is putting up a front - I saw her as utterly and completely freaked out about what happened. She also saw the Ori first hand so she *knows* what this mean and considering how she had witnessed true evil as a host, I see her reactions as "bury it, hide it, deal with emotions later, stop the evil now".

Cam is hot. Sam is hot. Teal'c is hot. That is all.

Interesting - well, I'll keep watching. I could believe it either way - that it was badly-done, or that it was Vala putting up a front and the acting was just a bit too subtle for me (*g*). I didn't have the same reaction in Ark of Truth, but when I watched that, I was assuming there was history, and Vala had had time to reach the point of being able to deal with Adria as the Orici.

And, yes to all the above. *uses Cam icon 'cause it doesn't get out much*

I think having been a host and then reviled by her own people at her return when not a host, Vala's first response is to put up a front; letting it down is harder. Her initial reaction to an unexpected situation is frequently an inappropriate one; I think she's buying time to figure out how to react--and how much to show.

Oh, interesting - yes, automatically put up a front to buy time, assuming it'll be necessary until proven otherwise. Yes, that does sound very Vala-ish.

It's a million degrees here too. This morning when I was walking the dog, the temperature wasn't even that high yet, but it was so humid by the time we made it back up the hill I was panting right along with him.

I'm never sure how much of Vala's reactions are a front. She's a con artist to the bone, but I would have thought that so soon after giving birth post partum hormones if nothing else would have made it hard for her to throw up her defenses that quickly. On the other hand, I wonder if she had spent the entire pregnancy mentally divorcing herself from the kid and the moment of anxiety at Adria being taken away was partly physical/hormonal and her being more distant later was the months of negative feelings kicking in.

I just don't know. This is what makes her fascinating to me, but I think it also must have made it hard for the writers to get her character right and keep the action moving.

Heh, comparitively, I don't think we have it too bad here (it's hovering around 28 degrees), but I'm just not used to it. Last year we had about a week of summer, and then it just rained. I don't have the wardrobe for a sunny climate! :D

I would have thought that so soon after giving birth post partum hormones if nothing else would have made it hard for her to throw up her defenses that quickly.

Yes! What you said! Post partum! Okay, putting up a front is what Vala is good at - but she's just given birth, dammit. Like, a few hours before. That affects people (so I'm told). They aren't really in the state of mind to be completely rational. But, eh, this is a supernatural pregnancy, so it's possible to handwave a lot of it. :)

It's been low 90s (I think that's about 33-34ish?)here and we're probably in for at least a few weeks of 101-104 in August. We had a hot dry summer last year instead of the usual hot and humid, but I think that was even more miserable. At least the humidity occasionally crosses over into rain storms which cools things down for a bit.

You'd definitely think that if there's any time when Vala would be vulnerable it would be then. But yeah, Ori-influence and all that. I wonder if also maybe the birth and just after was Vala's POV and the rest was more Daniel's POV so whatever Vala's reaction was doesn't come through as clearly? TV POV's are harder for me to get a handle on though. It's so much easier in print.

Oh, can I self pimp? I actually worked out some of my thoughts on Daniel and Adria in a fic...it's not one of my better ones because I shoehorned a little bit with the Vala & Daniel sequence. :-/

After the Battle (http://aurora-novarum.livejournal.com/10238.html)

Yay! I've caught one of your s10 watching before going off to the land of internetless. :-) I look forward to hearing more when I get back.

Yes, please do self-pimp! Ta. Will go read.

And, have a great time! Come back and tell me your thorts on S10. ;)

Oh... dangerous question to pose. I'm not sure Daniel could have killed Adria-as-a-child... just as I'm not sure Jack could ever have killed a child, no matter the danger said child posed.

Then again... the thing I miss the most in season 9 and 10 is the Jack/Daniel dynamic that became so prevalent in the earlier seasons. Daniel barging in where angels feared to tread - and Jack making a valiant grab for his leash and trying to pull him back out again or, failing that, wading in with him and trying to fix the problems. Or, conversely, Jack doing his usual non-diplomatic shtick and Daniel getting his chestnuts out of the fire.

Did Daniel defend Reece's possible innocense so doggedly because he knew that Jack was going to make sure he didn't go too far?

Also? Season 6 and seasons 9&10 have episodes and scenes that have made me a firm believer that Jack becomes Daniel when Daniel isn't around - and vice versa.

Which all is my very round-about way of saying: yes. Daniel can be utterly ruthless and do the difficult things in season 10 - because that's what Jack would have done, and since Jack isn't there... that's Daniel's job.

Now I'm wondering how Jack would've reacted towards Adria. Because there's the famous Jack O'Neill 'all children are precious' attitude, but there's also his attitude towards a) children that aren't really children (cf. Reece), and b) threats to the galaxy. Hm.

I do tend to think that having Jack around to take the cautious line, acting as a buffer, did give Daniel the opportunity to be more chancy with his own opinions - and academic debating is a skill that I think Daniel has in shovel-loads. Buuuuuuut... I wouldn't say that Daniel defended Reece in the expectation of not getting his way. I think he was willing to chance his theory that Reece could be talked round. If he'd been given the go-ahead to deal with her as he thought best, he'd've been surprised (rarely do the SGC let him off the reins like that), but I don't think he'd've hesitated to take the opportunity.

Yes, absolutely, to that last bit. SG-1 do seem to have changes of who plays responsible adult, and it does seem to relate to who is around, and what their emotional state is. I have a post brewing about this... :)

Oh, but I agree that Daniel argued Reece's case with the absolute intention of winning. I'm just wondering if he'd have argued the way he did if he hadn't known that Jack would be around to pick up the pieces.

Or maybe it's just that I never saw Reece as a child. Teenager (and not-human at that), yes. Child? Nope. Not seeing it.

Then again, I wanted to slap Daniel's teary face when Jack'd shot Reece, because he couldn't do anything else. The base - hell, even the gate-room - was being overrun by replicators controlled by Reece. And the quickest, most efficient and safest way of solving the problem was to eliminate the controller. *growls at Daniel*

Hmm... back on something resembling the topic ;-)...

I think you've just pointed out to me why I never liked Vala much. The writers simply haven't given her enough depth - and the way they handle Adria's birth and removal is pretty symptomatic of it.

A pox on male writers doing a piss-poor job of writing female characters!

Too. bloody. hot.

You see, I think the Vala-and-Adria thing was well done in S10, because when does Vala admit she cares? Except by accident. But there again, I loved Vala in S10, full stop (except one episode, which I shall not mention, because it does not exist) because she grows, and Claudia Black is awesome and Vala gets to be complicated and contradictory and amazing.

*is fully enjoying air conditioning at work*

Vala is awesome. I await further developments on this fact. :) I'm not really judging it yet - I'm just wondering where they're heading with all this, and whether they'll explore the Vala-Adria relationship in the depth I think it deserves, or if they were trying to turn Vala into a Hollywood-esque Action Hero, a quick pun and no emotional growth - which would be a crime, as Claudia Black is capable of so much more. But the overall impression I'm getting is Wait And See. :)

Gah! *is sadly lacking in air-con* I'm trying to find a breezy yet out of the sun spot, but I think a giant pigeon has stolen the only one.

And yes, on Vala. Wait And See. (I have a completely biased opinion of her, because she's my replacement Jack. Punning and damaged.)

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Stargate S10 thorts.

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